The news about Cochin to have the first Islamic bank in India has scared the RSS folks. They have come up with some comments against the initiative. The major argument against it is that it follows Islamic banking laws.
This is what happens when organizations have vested interests and leaders seek media attention for anything and everything. Before coming up with a protest, RSS leaders should have researched what Islamic banking really is.
The word Islamic can be a little scary these days, but Islamic banking is a very very safe word. Its just a set of rules of banking that was primarily followed by Muslims. Some major differences with the current banking system follows.
- There is no fixed interest on loans and deposits
- Profit and loss is shared
- Wont invest in industries involving gambling, alcohol and pork
More info can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking
These laws are formulated in accordance with the Islamic lifestyle. Our Indian banking system is a copy of the international banking system. If one is questioned then the other also has to be questioned.
http://mathrubhumi.com/php/newFrm.php?news_id=1250401&n_type=NE&category_id=7&Farc=
this is the link to the malayalam news. Could not find an English version.
Comment by Kenney Jacob — September 7, 2009 @ 11:28 am
the mutual fund guys have similar laws!
“Wont invest in industries involving gambling, alcohol and pork”
Comment by Vineeth Jose — September 7, 2009 @ 12:39 pm
Won’t be surprised if Hindus/Christians start a bank according to their rules. There should be some sort of standardization for everything – be it banks, educational institutions et al. If India is supposed to be a secular country – then why is it that there are banks that follow rules of a particular religion – be it good or bad.
Now that they have approved Islamic banking, it won’t be surprising if the government also allows Sharia laws in Muslim majority districts because majority of the people there consider it as their set of laws.
Minority appeasement? That is the only thing this government knows. What would your opinion be if the Sanghparivar starts a bank?
Comment by Prasanth — September 7, 2009 @ 3:01 pm
@Prasanth
You are over reacting. The name Islamic should not scare you. It has got nothing to do with the religion. Islamic banking is a set of rules for banking and has no serious connection to Islam as a religion.
Go to that wiki link and you will understand what it is. May be simple solution to this problem is to change the name.
BTW I am in full support of a uniform civil code, which has got more relevance to your arguments.
Comment by Kenney Jacob — September 7, 2009 @ 4:50 pm
What you suggested is a good option – change the name and also change the rules so that it is more compliant with the real world scenario. It is very evident from media reports that money for carrying out the terror attacks in Bangalore, Surat, Mumbai have come from Saudi and other mid east countries that are breeding grounds for terrorism. On this note, one should also remember the fact that once the bank starts its operations – it will be monitored by the Shariah supervisory board which means the government wont have much of a say.
Adding on, in the light of the SIMI activities in aluva and LeT recruiting people from Malabar area – the government should have the basic sense to investigate the matter and rethink the decision instead of starting something and then repenting. The need of the hour is not an Islamic bank but ensure that all people irrespective of caste, creed or religion get money/reservation based on their financial status. That is what can be called secularism. When dozens of farmers in Kerala suicide everyday the government is only adding to the chaos by taking such irresponsible decisions.
As Swami Vivekananda said 100 years ago, Kerala is indeed a mad man’s land with half naked men walking around in lungis, smoking, drinking and living irresponsibly.
Comment by Prasanth — September 7, 2009 @ 5:46 pm
Adding on, I must say I am not generalizing and accusing everyone, but the majority.
Comment by Prasanth — September 7, 2009 @ 5:47 pm
@Prasanth
You are again mixing up unrelated issues.
The current banking system we follow is a copy of the British model. Why did we not change it when we drive them out ? Maybe because we couldnt come up with anything better or maybe because we didnt want to disrupt the status qo.
Islamic banking is a set of rules for money handling just like our international banking system. We must not forget that the melt down is a result of that system…
Terrorists are getting funded from gulf countries, but it would be too outrageous to say that an Islamic bank is being setup to fund terrorists.
The government is doing minority appeasement and it should be stopped. But Majority appeasement is not the way to do it.
What we need is a uniform civil code in which religion has got no significance. Our constitution should not even contain that word.
Comment by Kenney Jacob — September 7, 2009 @ 6:14 pm
Hi Kenney ,
Social progress happens through exchange of Memes ( Memes are unit of information.Even your post is an exchange of meme. See Memetics [in wikidpedia ] ).Like wise , “Islamic” banking is just a meme. I do not know what motivated your post . what ever be the reason , you have got all the right to praise,crtisize or be neutral to anything which come across you. who gave that right to you ? IMHO , the idea of modern nation state and it’s (much evolved ) concept of Republic gives us freedom and liberty to do this.
Association of religious symbolism to banking in a modern republic like that of ours is a dangerous idea promulgated by some foolish policy makers under pressure from some hidden forces.
As far as I know , “Islamic” banking is set of guidelines stipulated in the Koran for financial transactions. Almost similar guidelines were found in other religious texts in the mediterranean coas(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loans_and_interest_in_Judaism ). If you take a deeper look , it is found in every book of repute. Chanakya’s Arthsasthra is another example.
We as a secular nation is trying to form a society in which individual rights are of paramount concern. A Govt. of Kerala enterprise starting a banking model with the name “ISLAMIC” banking is really dangerous for the secular fabric of the country. One should be very careful , when using terms. Depending upon the evolutionary path an individual has taken , Every term has got certain association for all of us. Now , contrary to what most intellectuals say , the term ISLAM , ISLAMIC has got certain association in the mind’s of people. For Kafirs term “ISLAMIC” banking will sent shock waves as they associate ISLAM , ISLAMIC with certain events happening around them.
If “Islamic” Banking is so good ( as “islamists” and left leaning liberals says ) , why cannot we take ideas and incorporate it into the banking system?
The naming of bank as Islamic is a calculated startegy by extra governmental forces who tends to gain a lot from this. Our Chitti System and Micro Credit is similar in spirit. Even in Bangladesh , Mohammed Younus did not name it as
Islamic system.
I would like to ask a fundamental Question here …
Does any one know on What basis Money is printed ?
The basis of Printing money is the need of the Govt. Every Govt. world wide prints money at will for fullfilling their commitments to donors , citizens and to cover the budget deficit. Who ever prints less , his currency will have more value. ( That is a long story,which i will write some other time )
So , Islamic banking has to work on the foundation laid down by “Judeo/Christian/Anglo-American/Capitalist” banking system and it’s valueless paper currency. I think , there is a conspiracy to malign ISLAM.
What i am concerned is Funds from different places will be routed to this bank and investing here , they will use the money to sabotage our nation’s secular fabric.
A Simple moralistic code of conduct has given a name to legitimize everything associated with ISLAM. If India wants to remain a secular nation , we should not use the term ISLAMIC banking. The same strategy is applied in Europe ( see Eurabia ) to legitimize the rise of Political islam there. Som westerners call it creeping “Shariat”.
regards
Praseed Pai
Comment by Praseed Pai K.T. — September 8, 2009 @ 7:03 am
@Praseed Pai
I agree to your comments and I am also of the opinion that this is a naming issue. I dont intend to endorse Islamic banking here… nor do i have faith in our banking system.
And about secularism… india is a screwed up country. I am not talking about minority appeasement, but the whole state is GOD crazy… you can do all sorts of nonsense in the name of god. As long as we allow those priests, mullas and poojaris to control what people do on the basis of faith… our country will never be secular.
What we need is a common set of laws based on humanity above which no religion can pass a comment on. Tradition should not be allowed to take over common sense.
Religious institutions should be under strict monitoring and regulation cos they hold un paralleled power and authority which has never done human beings any good.
Comment by Kenney Jacob — September 8, 2009 @ 7:19 am
this is really a surprising thing that some people are opposing the islamic banking. it is working in non-muslim countries like USA, Britian. the main objective of islamic banking is to have equal ditribution of income. there is more poverty in india and i am sure that india can eridicate the poverty to large extent if this banking will be folloed as is fallowed conventional banking.i am a research scholar on islamic banking in aligarh muslim university and i know islamic banking better than you. i only suggest u to look it from develomental point of view, insted of religious view.if u really want to develop the indi, then it is necessary for you to favour, support and invest in islamic banking. to be frank, when i explained this islamic banking in chandigarh at a confrence, every one was telling me when will this banking start in india. because they were impressed with its working. if u have any doubt, plz visit my website for more information. http://www.wdibf.com. thank you
Comment by Fayaz Ahamd — September 8, 2009 @ 9:42 am
It is not mixing up unrelated issues. There are certain standards to be maintained in every field – be it banking or education. Like Praseed suggested, if Islamic banking rules are brilliant why not incorporate them into the existing system? Why have a new system/sector/scheme and further damage the already damaged “secular” tag that India is known for.
People in the state might be God crazy. It is just how they wish to spend their time. Many people are alcohol addicts, others are drug addicts and in my honest opinion they are more dangerous to the society than God crazy people.
There is no thing as Majority appeasement. If the government does something that 80% of the people benefit then the government has done its duty. It is far better than serving the interests of just 20% of the population. Anyday.
Comment by Prasanth — September 8, 2009 @ 9:44 am
@Prasanth
Incorporating is the future. I am pretty sure most private banks will soon come up with islamic banking products. Its just like having different types of savings accounts or different types of investment options.
Islamic banking is a different type of banking, that’s all. It has got no relations with Islam other than the fact that it originated from Islamic countries.
And the system that we follow currently was started by Christian Knights. How do you see that now ?
Its not the name that matters, but the rules that matters.
And… let me tell you something… faith is the root of all evil. Religious conflict has killed more people than the two word wars together. Religion is poisoning people every day with false claims and provides a way for frauds swsmis and mathas to exploit peoples weaknesses.
Comment by Kenney Jacob — September 8, 2009 @ 10:02 am
“Incorporating is the future. I am pretty sure most private banks will soon come up with islamic banking products.” Kenny you are right. Already NAB (National Australia Bank), one of the Big Four banks in Australia is in the process of providing Islamic financial products in the mortgage sector. Basically this product involves the bank buying the property first and then selling to the mortgagee at a higher price thus making a profit while not charging interest. The buyer then repay the money but technically is not paying interest thus the bank meeting the Islamic criteria of not charging interest. You can actually think this as another of the myriad financial instruments and the bank is now offering university scholarships in this field! No one in Australia is worried about this. I don’t see this as a problem if these financial products are treated as just another product catering to a particular market. However knowing Indian politics I can see a very real chance of problems in the future. Suppose it transpires that the customers of Islamic mortgage products end up having larger repayment as opposed to customers of the conventional mortgage products. This is possible because of potential lack of competition or because of the very nature of the product (the bank has to adjust interests over the life period of the mortgage into the total price). Your average Jamal or Khaleda won’t have a clue on how the product actually works and rightfully construe this as a discrimination against the Muslims. I can guarantee that then there will be pressure on government or the bank to partly subsidise the product. And this may be a vote winner too – “Why should the Muslims suffer because of the faith?”! In Australia such problems will not arise. If the product is competitive, Muslims just won’t buy the product.
Comment by Anand Antony (Sydney) — September 9, 2009 @ 5:50 pm
@Kenney
Prasanth and Praseed have said most of what i wanted to comment.
I shall try to answer why RSS opposed this move.
1. Lets understand the whole context of this bank. Some NRI’s met Minister. Elamaram Kareem at calicut and gave a
proposal for investment. Within a few days KSIDC (govt venture) decides to invest in the Bank. The hurry with which
it was done and the fact that a secular govt is investing money in a religious toned venture is intriguing.
Remember this a govt which stopped giving Sri. Anantha Padmanabhan Award for childerns literature because it
carried the name of a hindu god.
Kenney : You are totally misinformed(or acting so) when you say an Islamic Bank has no religious overtones except
for the name. An Islamic Bank has to be goverened by the Shariat (Holy Islamic Law) and the bank governance is
overseen by a Shariat Advisory Council (mostly Ulemaas and Mullakas) . This council lays downs the rules for
functioning of the bank and has powers even to overrule the decisions of the management . Which would mean a
professional executive management (if at all there is one at this bank ) can be overridden by a council of ulemas.
Well it doesnt have religious overtones ! , does it?
Now understand this money comes from Taxpayers of Kerala (Since NRI’s dont get taxed in Kerala) and from the govt
ownership of Hindu Religious Institutions(No other religions places of worship is goverened by Govt). When the govt mints money from Hindu Temples it doesnt even plough back even 10% of that back to these institutions . Pilgrims at sabarimala suffers but govt has money to invest in an ISLAMIC Bank. AMEN!.
2. The other investors behind this venture have still not been exposed by the GOVT , just some vague references. We
need to know who they are and their past , present and credentials.
3. Understand how an islamic bank works since it doesnt provide or take intrest income it has to work on investment
and hire purchase principles.
In simple terms if i need to get an home loan from an Islamic Bank for a house of value X , the bank will buy it
for me and put a markup rate of Y over X and then i need to pay back X+Y in EMI to the bank over a period to
purchase back the house from the bank.
Now that means the bank has to invest a large pool of its funds in fixed assets and investments. The Investments
cant be intrest bearing like Government Bonds. Someone quoted a figure of 5000+ cr of funds being infused into the
bank , can you imagine what 5000+ cr investment by an single entity in fixed assets in a small state like kerala do
to the inflation , property prices et.c.
The other part is RBI stipulates the percentage funds of a bank to be parked in GOI bonds , how can a Islamic Bank
invest that since its an intrest bearing instrument. Would that not flout RBI rules?
Kenney : To you mentioning the ills of Religion . I remember a freind of mine telling me a joke. He mixed water
with whiskey and he got intoxicated , He mixed water with brandy and he got intoxicated , He mixed water
with Vodka and he got intoxicated. His conclusion. WATER IS INTOXICATING. Similarly if your run-ins with religion has ben bad its not because of religion per se but the people. I find solace and strenght in my religion because i view it that way.
I always see dicotomy in your views. Sanskrit is useless but Shariat is not. Astrology is not a Sci prience but Islamic banking principles are.
By the way a correction we do not follow British Banking practices , the first formal banking organisation in modern world was in Italy.
Next time remember Little Info is way dangerous than NO Info..
JP
Comment by Jayapradeep J — September 9, 2009 @ 8:07 pm
@Jayapradeep
I think you did not read the comments fully, I had mentioned that it was Christian knights who started the current banking system. And the modern rules of banking we follow is a pure copy of the western system.
Regarding your award thing I could not find any online references. If you can post some link here that would be really great. BTW, I never supported the government and its actions… so please dont try to dilute the issue at hand.
Whoever may over look the islamic system but ultimately they have to get RBI approval. No ulema can come and change the rules tomorrow just like that.
Now you are against 5000 crore coming to Kerala…. just because of inflation… I bet.. you are against this… just because this comes through an islamic bank. Otherwise.. we will hear everyone screaming…. we need investment.. investment… investment….
About government controlling temples.. I am of the opinion that we dont need any places of worship.. churches.. and mosques included. If we allow them to funtion.. they should be under strict governemtn control… everything they do.. and teach should be regulated…
Just for argument sake.. do we know much about Matha Amrithanandmayis past ? do we know much about her funding sources ? Do we know how the christian church operates ? When it comes to religions…. we dont know anything..
your water alcohol example is very true… soo alcohol is the problem right… exactly the same… religion is the problem.. right ??? whom ever you mix it with.. you get problems…
I did not say anything about sharia.. did I ?
I still maintain the notion that astrology is not a science.. its basically a fraud arrangement to cheat people. Can you contest me ?
Comment by Kenney — September 9, 2009 @ 8:54 pm
@Kenney, When you claim fraud Swamis and maths ultimately destroy human lives, do you realise that a staggering number of families in Kerala have no food to eat because their husbands go boozing? Which is worse? We are not talking of santhosh madhavans here. They are too cheap to be called a Swami. It is only their claim. People should ultimately have common sense to distinguish between a swami and a real estate/pornography don. I agree there are still many more fake swamis out there. Similarly, there are many more Arabi magicians, and priests out there.
At least most of the maths in the country rub by organizations/people like Sri Ramakrishna Mission, The Art of Living, Baba Ramdev, Mata Amritananda Mayi have done a lot of work towards the upliftment of the society. They have done more work in tsunami affected regions than the government. While none of them ask for any benefit or reward for their service – it does not mean we shouldn’t give credit to them. Even when such organizations build houses and rehabilitate victims irrespective of caste, creed, color or religion they are also taxed unlike many “other” religious organizations.
If true secularism is what is required there should be no minority appeasement. Islamic banking is just another way of minority appeasement. The media and people make a huge outcry when women below the age of 50 are not allowed to enter Sabarimala, but when Muslim women are not allowed to enter any mosque no one has any issue. Because of the pub incident in Mangalore everyone associates the RSS/Bajrang Dal with moral policing. Similarly can’t we associate Muslims with terrorism? When politicians dare to question the existence of Rama they should dare to question the existence of Jesus and Allah. If Moses separated the sea with a wand so can Rama build a bridge to Lanka! Religion is beyond science and it is a fact. If science could provide answers to all questions then the existence of God can be disproved, but as long as it cannot answer all God we have to believe that God exists. Astrology is a very vast science. Do read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology#Astrology_and_science if you are interested. If you deny astrology is a science, then the next in line would be ayurveda.
On a lighter note, before diving into the history of Mata Amritananda Mayi doesn’t it sound logical to even try to find out what goes on inside Madarassas and other “religious” training camps?
Comment by Prasanth — September 9, 2009 @ 11:38 pm
As a side note.
We might be copying the Western banking culture – aren’t we copying everything from them? Even our constitution is a ‘desi-version’ of other constitutions!
Comment by Prasanth — September 9, 2009 @ 11:41 pm
@Prasanth
Now dont tell me that Matha Amrithanandamayi is paying taxes… No religious institution pays taxes.. Someone has been feeding you with wrong information. Matha = Baba = Bishop = (what eveer you call a muslim leader)
Are you trying to say that no one has been criticizing the muslims for moral policing ?
Have you been attending those RSS classes ?
Muslims are the most discriminated against….but its something that their leaders asked for. People are scared to rent rooms to muslim bachelors these days. I am not sympathizing.. its all the fault of their leaders.. which made a community into religious extremists.
Dont get carried away by stories they tell you when you are a child. Just because some story is part of your religous belief it need not be true. Let me tell you.. Moses did nothing.. its just a 5000 year old story.
You also will suffer if you dont control your leaders. Dont let anyone take you on a ride on the name of religion and nationality. Those are just concepts.. ultimately we are all struggling human beings.
Taken from the astrology link you gave me
“Studies have repeatedly failed to demonstrate statistically significant relationships between astrological predictions and operationally-defined outcomes.[1][51] Effect size tests of astrology-based hypotheses conclude that the mean accuracy of astrological predictions is no greater than what is expected by chance”
Saw a line about lack of funding for astrology research in that article. One bastard charged 3 lakhs Rs for a small pooja from my friends dad. There is no other easier way to make money.
And.. never even try to compare ayurveda with astrology. Ayurveda is a proper science with results.
Comment by Kenney Jacob — September 10, 2009 @ 7:22 am
I repeat, some people find happiness in drugs, alcohol, cigars. Others find it in religion. The latter is better anyday!
I am not a RSS member, but I respect and adore the organization that has helped the country at times of adverisities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh#Role_during_the_1962_Sino-Indian_War
Regarding maths and other such organizations I do not understand why you turn a blind eye towards the countless service acts they have done for the society.
And yes, you rightly said – their leaders have turned a community into a group of religious extremists who believe that only their path is correct and who try to destroy all other cultures and religions in the name of jihad. I am not generalising here – I am not telling all Muslims are doing this – but their leaders have succeeded in moulding a certain section of people into religious extremists for their own personal gains. The need of the hour is to identify such leaders (in all religions – incuding santhosh madhavans) and isolate them from the society.
Comment by Prasanth — September 10, 2009 @ 4:12 pm
Hehe…This is the heights of Irony. A religious Bigot is trying to justify his religion’s faults by showcasing the faults of another religion to an Atheist who believes all religions are bad.
We all know that God is nothing but a grown ups version of an imaginary friend. An imaginary friend who will help him deal with all the uncertainities in this world. Gives him a false sense of security that somebody larger than himself gives a shit about him and wont let anything happen to him… because he is “Special”.
So can we prove God does not exist? Of course not !! You cannot prove a negative. So you cannot prove that a giant T pot is not revolving around earth as we speak. But most of us know there is not such t pot(because I just made it up). But if you still want to believe, you may believe in that theory too, nobody can prove you wrong
So what’s wrong in having imaginary friends anyway? Well, nothing as long as you keep your imaginary friends to yourself. Don’t start comparing your imaginary friend with your neighbour’s imaginary friend and then start fighting because his imaginary friend doesn’t like your imaginary friend.
So as far as you keep your religion to yourself and stop worrying about what other people are doing with theirs..sooner than later we’ll have a better world.
But you wont let that happen would you Prashant
Comment by jithin — September 12, 2009 @ 2:53 am
@Jithin That was really eye opening. And yes, like you said only if all Bigots could really understand that God doesn’t exist, the world would be a better place. Let’s pray for that day. Amen.
Comment by Prasanth — September 12, 2009 @ 6:30 am
Atleast these bigots let their gods be within themselves… lets pray for that day.. which is much easier.
Comment by Kenney — September 12, 2009 @ 6:36 am
the major points are
1. objection from RSS
2. new banking system in india and
3. banking system is based on saria!
1. RSS do object coz they think that religion like islam and christianity imposed these religions on Indians (Hindus)just like an imposition on europians and they can not tolerate any more.
2. current banking system is not good for islam and they have to comform to their religion’s teachings while they do banking… LOL.. (the interst accumulated in their account is being used for terrorism-www.thereligionofpeace.com)
3.Saria laws not only allow them to do such so called good things but also bad things. I welcome the saria criminal law to be imposed on thos who follow saria civil laws.
About my stand and it is clear that,
1 if islam follow saria they must follow both civil and criminal lasws and I welcome them.
2. About Banking; it s also good, the so called profit that would be generated out of service charges (when they deposit, take some percentage of it and the same way debit some percentage when they withdraw) will be enough to run the bank specially when islam is busy increasing by numbers. Hope they do not buy catholic cyrian bank (LOL).
3. RSS; Let them uphold their slogans of hinduism to open hindus eyes so that they will not get converte to other religions for money or reservations or cross mariages or other silly/beautiful reasons.
I also appreciate the hard work of Islam and Christians to spread their religion in India. Recently i heard Onam is no more our state festival as the democraZy ruled out based on the numbers on the other side is diminishing.
God Bless Hindustanis!(HCMPBJ-Hindu,Christian,Muslim,Parsi, Budhist & Jains) Let them fight for supremacy of their own religion untill one exists and the rest extinct.
Awaiting replies….
tail piece… I (am/was) I am not so sure now.. a hindu, baptised to christianity, ran away from it becasue the priest told me not go to other churches though there is Mr.JC (Jesus Christ), trying to find new horizons in Islam. I hope they wont kill me if I run away … LOL…..
Omar Khayam (that would be the name i select on completion of the rituals i undergo..)
Guys u must also jump in.. only then you know how cold it is.. and do not criticise or judge that you dont understand. If you understand it, join in islam… there is no return and there is no come back.. everybody’s life is precious at least to themselves.. Hope i will find a way out…
By OK (Omar Khayam)
E&OE (expected is the corrected reading)
Comment by netlander — September 14, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
it will be 100%sucessful
Comment by basheer — September 22, 2009 @ 10:50 pm