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I recently had an eye opening experience in one of the orkut discussion forums. A thread started by a person to boast about Indian culture and thrash western culture turned nasty when discussions turned to the topic “Premarital sex”.
The Indians gained an advantage with this topic, but it was short lived with a reply from a western counter part. The following was his comment.
“You are blaming us for having premarital sex, but its not as bad as marrying cousins and uncles“.
That was the end of that discussion. There was no argument from the Indian side to counter it. We lost the war, but it created a wave of thoughts in me.
Never think of any culture as superior or inferior. All cultures evolved into its current form cos the society needed it. For the Hindus marrying cousins is very acceptable. In Tamil Nadu, girls marry their uncles. From a western perspective its bad.
Cohabitation is very acceptable in the western culture. But parents here faint at the thought of it. Muslims are legally allowed to have 4 wifes simultaneously. Divorce is just three words for them. If you are a non muslim and if you are divorced, you will face some serious discrimination in the society.
Now, Which is wrong and which is right ?
I guess the answer would be, “Everything is right“.
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57 comments ↓
Having born in a hindu family, i have seen many such marriages.i strongly disapprove it.But the fact is that the majority are for it.Still such marriages do happen……..i don’t think we can change the mindset of our people……if we want to make change, we can focus on our children and impart them the right information about social issues like dowry, ethics etc……i cannot boast about my land’s culture bcos a nine year old girl was molested and killed last week by a 45 year old man…….so even if we had great culture and majority of the people are immoral then wat is the use
I rest my case.
I’m still watching this thread to see if ANYONE comes in here with a different view. heh heh.
Kenny
I think i should correct a misconception you (and many others including muslims) have about marriage and divorce in islam.
It is true that there is a verse in Holy Qur-an permitting a man to have four wifes. Some muslims often quote this verse to justify their marrying more than one girl. But they conveniently hide the follwing verses of the holy book which say that “only if you can do equal justice to all the wifes, which is very difficult….”. The verses came from Allah after a war when many girls left widowed and women out-numbered men in the community. To prevent girls from getting into unethical relationships and so on, marrying more than one girl was permitted at that time.
In case of divorce also, qur-an has a lenient approach. Each of the three divorce statements are to be said at three separate intervals, each in between the wife’s menstrual cycle, provided no sexual relations have taken place between the couple. This is to give enough time for the wife/husband to re-consider his/her decision.
Many cases of divorces, where husband said the divorce statements in sleep, or wrote in the wall thrice, have been reported from some parts of India. And the priests’ apex body declared them valid. But such divorces are not permitted in islam.
In any religion, problems of this type are created by preists who think that they are the ‘wholesale dealers’ of the religion. Remember the famous statement by Christ: “Purohithanamar paryunnath ningal anusarikkuka.. pakshe avare anukarikkaruth. Avar vella pooshiya savakkallarakalaanu… thurannaal durgandham vamikkum..”
Well said abdunni.. Its a very big misconception people have about Islam!
The culture is always unique to the each society. Some may like it or some may not. We can’t view somebody’s culture in our own’s viewpoint. All culture and its style are good and is in accordance to the society’s needs…. Issues arise when we view some other culture in our own cultural viewpoint….
@Islam believers
No offense meant !!!!!!
I accept the fact that, 4 wifes was a need of the time. But Now that situation has changed. Dont you think that its high time that the rules also changed ?
Yes, one should never be too proud of his own culture and background.. There are other cultures around the world that are respectable in their own way.
Everything is correct from different perspectives. Finally it all comes down to personal freedom. Cultures change as situations change and its to be judged… right or wrong.
“Everything is right”……
I can’t Fully agree with that…. that would only be an excuse….
There are a thousand religions which have a million rules and cultures… i agree all should be respected and tolerated….
But like it or not some things are just not acceptable….. I’m not mentioning anything in particular cause i’m sure you all know them…
The main problem comes when “can”’s are made “should”’s….
Like “abdunni” mentioned “…Holy Qur-an permitting a man to have four wifes” , only when the situation arises.
It doesn’t say he should have 4 wives… but people use it to justify thier actions… which should not be allowed.
Rather than thinking from a religious perspective why not think from a human perspective…
—-After all that what we all have in common—-
If you were to ask the answer would be — everybody is wrong and not everybody is right like you said.
In the first 3 paras you highlighted the weaknesses in both the arguments; proving how hollow they were.
Neither of the ideologies were perfect, so on that basis alone can you declare both of to be right? If you were trying to say all cultures are equal it is a different thing altogether.
Also you can’t compare this particular Indian and western tradition.
Marrying within the family was a tradition started to keep the money within the family. The tradition is outdated much like the one among the muslims (allowed to keep more than one wife).
However premarital sex is an after effect of a decision to treat youngsters like adults. Give them the same amount of space and privacy etc.
I am not supporting either of these arguments… was just stating they are on different levels and hence incomparable.
@Balu
Its your perspective that the presented cases are on two different levels. Its shows your inability to detach from the concept of socially acceptance.
There are no levels here. You see one as acceptable and the other as unacceptable. And I see the word “Tradition” in your comment. Tradition is something that is practised often. If we were to practise premartial sexx often, that also would have become part of our so called tradition.
The point that I made is that right and wrong are relative.
> Never think of any culture as superior or inferior.
I agree and disagree. Some parts of a culture - any culture - will be bad. But other parts will be good. We have not yet hit upon a perfect culture. I am not sure that we will.
Anyway, about the subject of marrying blood relations - its a bad idea from the health perspective. Genetic problems will compound in the the children. I *think* we have a rule that forbids such marriages in India - not sure about that one.
@Binny
There is no such thing called a perfect culture. Our culture is what we are right now. No point in judging it.
So, is the applicable in reverse context(Keeping neutrality in Mind). I mean many of the Indian states have low women ratio than men to the entire population. So in a reverse context like this, is it applicable for Women to marry more than one man, So that the man could be satisfied.
(Keep kerala as an exception, since you know about.)
Abdunni said it all. You know this three words divorce business is something that we see only in South Asia. And the Muslim Personal law that is upheld by the Indian Legislature accepts that.
According to a lawyer friend of mine, The Muslim Personal Law that governs all marital and personal matters of Muslims in India is the exact document that the Mughals left behind. And the Mughals, as we know were not purely Islamic in their rulings..
The Shariat law allows seven different procedures of divorce. Where are the rest? Apart from the triple talaq, the rest six favour women.
For a Muslim marriage contract to be fulfilled, a dowry has to be paid to the woman by the groom. And the Woman has the freedom to quote what she wants. In South Asia, it is a mere joke. No woman is empowered to quote her dowry. And in parts of Kerala, the groom’s family quotes the money or jewellery that they are gonna give the woman as dowry, expecting the bride’s party to reciprocate it with a return dowry of several times more in value.
And a primary condition of the Triple talaq is that the wife be allowed to keep the dowry that she got from her husband to fulfill the marriage contract. Now, in India when the dowry is actually paid by the bride’s party, how can this triple talaq happen rightly?
I often wonder WTF is the AIMPLB is doing.. I strongly feel that the Muslim Personal Law should stipulate that a Muslim marriage contract is not valid unless the groom agrees to pay a dowry to the bride..
Ohh no the west blocked the orkut discussion at that level? Indians should have added, if marrying uncles and cousins are bad than pre-marital sex, then what will be the degree of illegal sex and pre-marital sex with uncles and cousins in their country? Actually pre-marital sex and marrying uncles and cousins come under same category, same level and same shame.
Man is the reason for all rules for religions. Prophet Mohammed(SAW) married 4 women during the war time to protect widows being exploited sexualy and illegaly by the bad men or women. And those were recorded, people think thats legal as RAW in islam and still practising. Some people know its real sense, but they simply close their eyes , ears and mouth and do as they like.
Its natural that a girl and boy make sex when they talk too much (i meant the love sense). Its the psycology of a girl to open chance for sex and its the over enthusiasm and over knowledge of a boy which make them use such chances. That is really bad legally, manly and religious wise. Please dont defend with the quote ‘its the right of a boy and girl wether to ve sex or not’. Because its not a valid point and there is not quote to defend that right word as one think.
About marrying uncles and cousins, science have proved a lot defects about the kid generated from such marriages. The reason they said is some thing related to blood. It s advised to marry a person from the 3rd or 4th to above pre generation cycle member than immediate or just after immediate generation cycle member (family cycle).
So i think the topic is about should not v/s must not
Do everyone think Premarital sex is bad. Sex is what human is, even before he invented fire, before he started speaking languages , Even before societies got tied up in a rule. Those where our forefathers, which we perfer to deny in a comopolitan culture. There wasn’t such marriages to make it legal and illegal. What we are now is just because of those illegal, premarital sex.
@Tony
Do you agree our fore fathers had tails? bigger hands?furry body?bad hygiene? You say during their times, sex was legal? I meant with out even marrying? Do you have any proof for non parenthood during those times? If you are talking about Adam and eve, adam was the first man on earth, quran taught us to pronounce him messenger of god. Why does bible and other holy books mention or teach about this very first man on earth?
Because he was a massager of god. I dont believe he was in to illegal sex.
Sorry Kenney I cant agree with ur definition of tradition.. you are talking about norms in society here. What I mean by tradition is
“the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition. “
Like I mentioned in my earlier comment I wasn’t taking sides.. I was merely trying to bail out ‘Indian traditionalists’ who dint have an fitting reply to pose thats all!
It is right to say right and wrong are relative but to say everyone is right.. hmm not so right! =D that is just an easy way out of the issue..
To be honest, I don’t see a point in seeing who is right and who is wrong.. it works for best if you try to see what works best for you
PS: sorry to break up my thought in diff comments I find it easier that way thats all!
@ SAF
I am saying about Homosapains, I wonder you havn’t read anything about Evolution Theory, I think it was man who intevented fire, Since there was a man who intevented fire, You can’t his dad for creating him due to illegal permarial sex. When it comes to stories they will forget commen sense.
Can you give me any, I mean any historical proofs for existance of man named Adam.
Evolution theory!!!! lots to read?? hmmm.
Tony, at any open talk, never ever say tat fire was INVENTED by MAN. you have to believe that sun came before earth, it was only after earth that a mono cellular creature got life, later multi cellular, and evolutions theory taught us the entry of man from those stages.
Also believe it please that, Fire is one of the 4 elements which is natural. If fire was invented, so will be air, water and land.
Can you give any historic proofs for the non-existance of the man named Adam and woman named Eve?
So, premarital sex is only a sin.
(Tony,nothing in personal , all my comments are just for this forum. and the topic
ok )
@ SAF remember this too:
There were people even Before 20,000 years. Where thinking man, with all the thinking capabilites of a man is supposed to be orginated at 200000 B.C.. And about sex, Irrespective of people with long hands, enormous furs in their body,race, caste, religion , creed every people do it in the same way. So do, man is also a mammal. If you are making an argument based on stories of age, I will give a list of stories in bible, where you can see best examples, of illegal, premarital sex(Its very nasty too). And SAF, If you can, prove it, by any way that Adam is the first man on this planet. If you use your common sense,that Adams stories is reported, the reporter of Adam and eve must have the capability to write, soon after the departure of the first man,which shows the capability of the ‘great follower’ of the first man to write and read and reproduce the first story(stories started with man).
Earlier forms of scrips is expected to start with 4000 B.C. with the Sumerian Scripting, Cunieform. So am I supposed to believe that the story of adam was firstly reported in Sumerian Language.How brilliant…!
Before I submit prooves of the first man, i would like to know you opinion about quran.
Do you know what quran is? We believe and its recorded that Mohammed(SAW) received quran from god through angels and so the quran contains what god wanted world to know through Muhammed(SAW) , thus quran was released.
Do you believe this? I am asking you coz quran has got lots of proofs to what I support here. Including pre-marital sex which is our PRIMARY TOPIC of discussion
And please no argument, the first quran was in Arabic only (i believe so, shall tell the good answer after correct reference).
@ SAF,
I agree with your point that, FIRE can exist in natural way. and is not supposed to be invented by man.
If you dont have enough proofs for a man named Adam, its a belief of yours that he is the first man,why are you stating believes on a belief.
Again, religion started with man, and sins started with a religion. Sin differs with religion. I will give many stories in Bible which is premarital, and incest.
Read this SAF, List of Incest reference in Bible, Now Please, make your point on Premarital Sex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_References_to_Incest
@ SAF,
I agree with your point that, FIRE can exist in natural way. and is not supposed to be invented by man.
If you dont have enough proofs for a man named Adam, its a belief of yours that he is the first man, and why are you stating believes on a belief. ?
Again, religion started with man, and sins started with a religion. Sin differs with religion. I will give many stories in Bible which is premarital, and incest in Bible. I think it wont be a Holy Sin, even if it is done by a holy man.
Read this SAF, List of Incest reference in Bible, Now Please, make your point on Premarital Sex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_References_to_Incest
Jewish law does not explicitly forbid cousins from marrying, but it does prohibit sexual relations with in-laws, aunts but not uncles (Lev 18: 6–18).
Why Concessions for a Sin…???
Hahah.. thank you for the link. But dont stick with this tony. Try to search some Marriage acts in various countries / continents. If you have time, think well. what you gave me s all related to history, why did marriage act come in to being? To support inter family marriages? To support pre-marital sex?
Reading the laws from history, should i change my mind to support pre-marital sex and relations with uncles and cousins???
Well… i am searching the hard proofs too.. shall send once i finish composing.
Good luck SAF, Search for proofs. I have already done my research in Country and its aspects. I will give it to you, if you want me to. Best of luck.
If you have just share it..
This is an article written by my friend and a fellow scholar.
http://oneworldschool.blogspot.com/2008/01/nature-and-nation-state.html
@Tony
One final ask about your conclusion.
Do you support Pre-Marital sex, Marrying Uncles and cousins or not?
Just one word conclusion will do.
If so why, without any link. Just in your own words.
@ SAF
Before making my point, I like you to discuss my point on marriage.
Marriage is a part in life, More specifically , it is a custom in the society. For some marriages, you needn’t love the person before you marry(Say arranged marriage). I feel it is very pathetic, to start loving a person from the very first day(It’s the wedding day) I met her. The marriage gives a person the right to do sex with the partner from the very first day they met each other. If sex comes in the first priority than love, I think the partner is just a commodity for a person to satisfy his sexual desires. So, I feel this system of marriage is quite absurd and ridiculous.
Another option is to love a person before my marriage, since love never searches for conditions, i will never bother about her/his religion. Since love is the primary objective in my relation, sex comes only secondary. Its nothing like ‘let’s love’ policy. It a natural phenomenon. But religion and society is a great villain here. They brings a situation in which I am not allowed to love a person, or marry her since my religion is different from her’s. I can marry her only if we matches in religon(tradion/system/caste…) etc. So love, in this system has no value at all.
So, marriage is just a constraint to stay in peace with a relation(else they will kill you).
Since I never respect a marriage where it is just a constraint, and which allows you to have sex before you love the person, than loving a person before having sex.
And I do respect a marriage, If there is love between them.
I do give my support, for Love before sex , irrespective of permarital or postmarital situations.
___________________________________________
NB: [For women] You don’t need to pay dowry, if you want to be loved.
___________________________________________
Hello,
“Muslims are legally allowed to have 4 wifes simultaneously. Divorce is just three words for them.”
From you got this wonderful knowledge? From Israeli websites or from RSS books?
Ofcourse Muslims are legally allowed to have 4 wifes simultaneously, but don’t quote this without specifying the conditions.
I’ll explain this with an example, you can kill your brother (if your brother is trying to kill you or to kill your parents or he is harmful to the society). So here there are some conditions, otherwise it’s illegal to kill your brother.
Then the next part of your argument “Divorce is just three words for them” ha ha ha ha.. you don’t know anything about the ‘Thalaq’ system in Islam. Dear brother ‘Divorce is not a three word in Islam. It’s a big process. You can not divorce your wife (or your husband) with three words. And do you know one thing? Wives can divorce their husbands in Islam.
Dear brother please learn it before criticizing it. If you are not sure about something, please don’t criticize..
Yes.. most of Christians doesn’t allow divorce and marry cosines (and sometimes allow premarital sex, alcohol, etc), but if you want to support such culture, please specify the merits of such things.
YOUR BIGGEST ARGUMENT
—————————
“You are blaming us for having premarital sex, but its not as bad as marrying cousins and uncles“.
—————————
Brother, for us marriage is not only for sex. If your observation is ‘Marriage=Sex’ or ‘Sex=Marriage’, you have some serious trouble and better consult a psychiatrist otherwise ………………….
Hello,
“Muslims are legally allowed to have 4 wifes simultaneously. Divorce is just three words for them.”
From where you got this wonderful knowledge? From Israeli websites or from RSS books?
Ofcourse Muslims are legally allowed to have 4 wives simultaneously, but don’t quote this without specifying the conditions.
I’ll explain this with an example, you are allowed to kill your brother (if your brother is trying to kill you or to kill your parents or he is harmful to the society). So here there are some conditions, otherwise it’s illegal to kill your brother.
Then the next part of your argument “Divorce is just three words for them” ha ha ha ha.. you don’t know anything about the ‘Thalaq’ system in Islam. Dear brother ‘Divorce is not a three word in Islam. It’s a big process. You can not divorce your wife (or your husband) with three words. And do you know one thing? Wives can divorce their husbands in Islam.
Dear brother please learn it before criticizing it. If you are not sure about something, please don’t criticize..
Yes.. most of Christians doesn’t allow divorce and marry cosines (and sometimes allow premarital sex, alcohol, etc), but if you want to support such culture, please specify the merits of such things.
YOUR BIGGEST ARGUMENT
—————————
“You are blaming us for having premarital sex, but its not as bad as marrying cousins and uncles“.
—————————
Brother, for us marriage is not only for sex. If your observation is ‘Marriage=Sex’ or ‘Sex=Marriage’, you have some serious trouble and better consult a psychiatrist, otherwise ………………….
pls remove my first review (some typo )
Hmmm… if you dont mind and dont feel disrespected, could you tell me your age?
One more thing is that, you have not yet answered to my question, conclusion with respect to the topic here please.
Premarital sex Vs Marrying Uncles and cousins.
Well my points is straight NO to both. Reasons are
humanitarian consideration to any girl with respect to what I learned so far, religious belief, social harassment and self concerned (i am not a girl, but i do have a family and cousins and uncles and aunts and friends).
Ha Ha, No SAF, Come on, You cant disrespect me. I will get disrespect only by myself. And why are you in need for searching my age, What I said is facts and questions irrespective of age. And ofcourse, sex and love are charactersitic of age, Romance is similarly a Psycological factor than its ethical context. I havnt seen 9 year boy who is having a romantic affair. If there is something so, It is an abnormal factor and its very rare. This is the way your mind is controlled.
Love is a Psycological factor, It doenst need any Humanitarian consideration. You are misusing the term Humanitarian consideration. I am the person who is supposed to decide to select the person I love. I have seen many people who suffered just because of the love and religion got mixed up, marriage and status got mixed up. And I would like to give you an attention toward such Humanitarian Violations.
And sure, I never support, marrying cousins, uncles and aunties. Because I cant see them in that way. This is very ridiculous. If any one feel such a love towards them, It think its a disorder, a psycological disorder. I havent seen none among this category.
So, marrying(I told you this is a stupid constraint in which you are sometimes supposed to marry the person whom you never loved.)or marriage, is what which Violates Humanitaran violation. This is what is against what you have learned. Marriage is not Psycological/Mental aspect But Love is. You should understand that Forced Marriage is possible, Forced Uncle/Cousin marriage too. But forced love is impossible.I am against every aspects forced marrying and Thats why I am here, writing this.
___________________________________________
I am still waiting for your religious hard proofs.
___________________________________________
I need you to do this. Your points in correspondence to Humanitarian aspect of Incest in Bible(Tanakh/Torah).
You wanted me to search results for Marriage acts in countries (Now the marriage is in the registrars office). Why cant you search it for me. And I have already given you my points regarding Country and its aspects.
Tell me your points regarding arranged marriage(Including dowry with Humanitarian Aspect), Inter caste marriage, Inter religious marriage with the Religious aspect in these marriages. I have told you my view that why I am against concept of marriage, which marriages am I against etc. etc.,here in post no(36).
I am making my point clear about marrying uncles and cousins in this post Para(3)
___________________________________________
@ SAF
Ha Ha, No SAF, Come on, You cant disrespect me. I can only get disrespected by myself. And why are you in need for searching my age, What I said is facts and questions irrespective of age. And ofcourse, sex and love are charactersitic of age, Romance is similarly a Psycological factor. I havnt seen 9 year boy who is having a romantic affair. If there is something so, It is an abnormal factor and its very rare. This is the way your mind is controlled.
Love is a Psycological factor, It doenst need any Humanitarian consideration, and its a part of humanity. You are misusing the term Humanitarian consideration. I am the person who is supposed to decide to select the person I love. I have seen many people who suffered just because of the love and religion got mixed up, marriage and status got mixed up. And I would like to give you an attention toward such Humanitarian Violations.
And sure, I never support, marrying cousins, uncles and aunties. Because I cant see them, love them in that way. This is very ridiculous. If any one feel such a love towards them, It think its a disorder, a psycological disorder. I havent seen none among this category.
So, marryiage(I told you this is a stupid constraint in which you are sometimes supposed to marry the person whom you never loved.) is what which Violates Humanitaran violation. This is what is against what you have learned. Marriage is not Psycological/Mental aspect But Love is. You should understand that Forced Marriage is possible, Forced Uncle/Cousin marriage too. But forced love is impossible.I am against every aspects forced marrying and Thats why I am here, writing this.
___________________________________________
I am still waiting for your religious hard proofs.
___________________________________________
I need you to do this. Make your points in correspondence to Humanitarian aspect of Incest in Bible(Tanakh/Torah).
You wanted me to search results for Marriage acts in countries (Now the marriage is in the registrars office). Why cant you search it for me. And I have already given you my points regarding Country and its aspects.
Tell me your points regarding arranged marriage(Including dowry with Humanitarian Aspect), Inter caste marriage, Inter religious marriage with the Religious aspect in these marriages. I have told you my view that why I am against concept of marriage, which marriages am I against etc. etc.,here in post no(36).
I am making my point clear about marrying uncles and cousins in this post Para(3)
Best of Luck, and Have a nice time.
___________________________________________
Well well well.. thank you for letting me know that you are against Marrying Uncles and Cousins. So no more arguments on that basis. Happy atleast.
The links, i dont know if this forum is allowed to post links to other sites, as admin have not announced any restriction yet.
Please read the contents of link below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
Sorry admin, if thats against the rule.
So about dowry…
Where in the discussion of Pre marital SEX is the relevance of dowry coming? Tony, please be to the point.
I have some friends who got married without any religious problem with their parents blessings and got whom they loved.
There are other friends of mine who got well arranged marriages and are happy and happier so far.
No riots took place. Regarding dowry, is that practised by all men?? Atleast now?? There are some and there some others who dont, for example my father who did not demand dowry for his brothers marriages but gave plenty for his brother-inlaws. I am his son, towards Humanitarian aspects of life. Ok.
Dear Tony and SAF…..
Why you both are fighting over Marital status and issue of pre-martial sexual relations only in religious point of view and that too narrowed only to Quran and Bible. Both Quran and Bible came into force only after 2000 years… Prior that, there are so many religions like Hinduism, zoranism, Jainism, Buddhism, Jewish, Aramanic, Mayan, Egyptian, Sumerian, Roman, Greek, Malayan and many like that….
All these religions are more than 5000 years ago. In Hinduism as well as Egyptian, Greek, Roman religions, there is no mentioning that Sex is aftermath of a Marriage nor marriage is a licence for sex.
For Example, Shiva and Shakti never got married, but they are considered to be part and parcel. Shakti’s human form-Paravati only married shiva. But prior to such marriage, Shiva is in relation with shakti.
Egyptian god Ra has sons of around 1200 without being married to none, but relations with various egyptians. Roman and Greek gods too has various legends like this.
The famous Indian tale- Shakuntala-Daushyant proves that Indian Traditions have sexual relations prior marriage. In Hinduism, a consenting lady and Man is automatically assumed to enaged into a divine marriage called Gandharava Vivaham… Its not any ritualistic, but only mental consent to each other. This Country is named after the Great King (Bharat) who is born out of so called pre-martial sexual relations of Shakuntala and Dushant.
Sex is a state of mental desire of all mankind, irrespective of their marital status. Its just like any other emotions like happiness, sadness, thirst or hunger etc… Do we need to marry to satisfy hunger or thirst? No…… Sex is just like that.
Does any mammal (Barring Dolphins) do marry each other for sex? Is Man a Mammal? Being part of a civilization, we formed some societial norms and customs, where in its initial years Marriage was just a contract of consent between consenting man and woman to share a common life together at their pleasure. It was later, due to misinterpretions and complexity of life, that made marriage a statutory institution for life…….
Pre marital sex, is not so good… I do agree because it hurts the civilization and our social values….. But today modern civilizations are slowluy becoming individualistic rather than commonity as it was in past. So this issue is in opinion of each individuals…..
I do value my social values and customs, so personally I won’t prefer pre-marital sex myself. But I won’t stop anybody who prefer pre-marital sex, under their own consent (provided they have a mental state as well as physical state for having such a sex), as I have no business in minding into somebody’s relations …… But a pre-condition of a Pre-Marital should be that, both parties should have mutual consent to do. If one is not in consent, it amounts to rape.
Even among animals, they won’t do a forcible sex. No tusker will forcibly attack a Lady elephant and do sex. They only make their announcement for sex, and the Lady elephant comes there, announcing its likings. I know humans are not elephants…. But we both are mammals and all creations of the same God. The god can’t make different rules for different species, stating that for elephant its not sin, whereas for humans its sin…….
Dear SAF, in gita, Krishna has made a famous verse abt sin “There is no NOUN/VERB that amounts sin, but its the ADJECTIVE/ADVERB that determines whether its sin or not”…. Sex simply is an ACT…. its not a sin…. the ADVERB- FORCIBLE, could make sex as a sin. Likewise the adverb-CONSENTING could make sex as virtue.
Krishna married 16000 ladies, not as legal. these 16000 ladies were eariler arrested and made as wives of demon king- Narakasura… During that time, without consent of these ladies, Narakasura made sex with them, which made him sinful…. Whereas Krishna even without marrying them legally, had sex with them, but not sinful, because they were consenting………
Hope you understood what I wanted to say
By the way I am 24 years old and believes in the freedom and individualistic decision powers of each man…..
Regards
Arun
@Arun
You talked a lot from mythology. They were and are gods of various sources. They had sex with some ladies.
Coz god (sorry to use this here) can have as many wives or keeps as they can, people still think its legal to have sex with so many girls or ladies or woman in our community?
Also may be why some good swamis were caught red handed in kerala, reasons are all known and are shameful. Declaring themselves as god, having sex, raping girls or ladies or women…….
So what is reveled here? So called ancient gods and goddesses might have had intentions before making centuries in the number of sex they had.
Even muhammed (SAW) married 4 women for some intention and was not over counted than 4.why?
People read and declared them correct with out even thinking what is behind those and even made their own believes when they feel like.
Dear friends, every one have their own rights, their own views, their own likes and dislikes… but, donot forget one important thing, we are made for some reason, we are to live for some reason which are different for all.
There are so many rights of us which are actually not supposed to be practised.
There are lots of likes in us which are actually not allowed to practice.
Similarly all who think the right to have sex with their partner before marriage is simply making a bad movement, w.r.t what we are supposed to do.
Not only before marriage, after marriage, illegal relationships are bad.
What ever you have read about premarital sex in the previous centuries are not good enough to be practised.
Why did the rate of children got reduced from 1200 to 12 or 20 and the rate of wives reduced from 1600 to 4 or less in this present day world?
Dear SAF
I was not trying to say pre-marital sex is a good thing or it should be praticised. But why I say so, because I believe in some societial values which I live…. I live in India and is born into a family that uphold such values… As long as I remain in this land and follows my family values, I may not enagage into pre-marital sex. But if my culture around me permits me to do pre-marital sex or doesn’t uphold such values, I may do it.
There are so many in this society who has different culture… Be it any religion… Even in Islam, you have Saudi kind of Islam as well as Jordan/Lebeoan kind of islam… It depends upon the culture surrounding us- The Individual, reflects our actions……..
If a person who feels that his values are similar to what you have in US, he is free to do so.
If I wish, I can marry 10,000 wives and have 12000 children, as in this country there are many people still having polygamy. In India, its very much legal sexual relationship with anybody in opposite sex, as long as both parties are consenting. But why income will support me having 10,000 wives or having 12,000 children… Krishna could do so, NOT BECAUSE he was god as he lived in this earth as a man only, BUT he was a king.
Even today in many Islamic countries there are many sheikhs and arab who have more tha 2000 ladies in their harem… Its reported that Sheikh Khalifa- President of UAE has around 24 ladies in their harem. Islam permits only 4 wives… But he has extra 20, which are not legally married…… But its not considered as sin, as he married with consent and he is able to feed and protect all ladies…… I can’t do so, because my income will not be enough……….
There are so many muslims- to be frank highly so called orthodox Wahabbi muslims in Saudi, who have relations with numerous relations…… Is it against Islam, if so they why its not presecuated in land of 2 holy mosques? Because the culture of the land doesn’t considers it crime, as long as they can protect and feed the ladies………..
I don’t need to quote the lives of gods, but the very social system of Nairs/kshyatriyas/namboodhiris in Kerala untill 1935, that permits me to have relations with any number of ladies without marriage and claim it as part of our native culture… Even after bringing Hindu Nair Act- 1935, I still can have relations, but I can’t do, as I have to bear expenses of all the children- legal/illegal born out any consenting relationship, which I can’t afford….. Isn’t this was part of our culture…..
How can you say, the culture of a land could change simply by law? It needs social mindset change…. Nairs donot follow sambadham system, not just because of law alone, but because of reforms in the social mindset.
if such a social system change can be initiated, a reverse social system change too can be initiated……. Nobody can’t object that, as what we have today is because of a system change process initiated a few time back…….
If people feels that pre-marital sex is not an issue, its their viewpoints and nobody has right to question. Its their matter of privacy.
We used live in a society, that didn’t have concept of marital relations untill 1935…… I used to hear from my grandmother used to say, those days father was considered simply as AMMA’S KETTAYIA NAIR……. Isn’t it part of our culture? Reforms in social system made us to recongize Marriages and Marital relations as well as system of Fatherhood……….It was need of time then….. But if today’s generation feels a reverse system reforms, how can we call it as SIN? How an act that was not sin for some years, suddenly became sin? I couldn’t understand that part of the logic……
Infact I must once again assure you, I am not in favour of pre-martial relations, but you can’t turn a blind eye on it, saying its a sin… I only countered your arguements against Tony, only the religious dimensions that you gave……. I just to say, there is NO SIN for any act, only the objective of the Act determines whether its sin or not…….. If some swamis do sex with ladies upon mutual consent, how its SIN? Here the issues in our society, is that they did crime, because they didn’t enage in pre-marital relations, BUT IN RAPE…….
YOU MUST DIFFEREINATE BETWEEN PRE-MARITAL RELATIONS from RAPE…. the FORMER is done on mutual consent basis, whereas latter is done on force, which makes its a crime, sin…………
Hope you got what I want to say
Regards Arun
@ Arun
We are not in a fight, Its just a flow of thinking, we expect to meet at a particular point. And I think you have mistaken about the Bible I mentioned here, its from the Jewish Bible, also called as Torah/Tanakh. Its the offical bible of Jews. I mentioned it because, In Abrahamic religions, like Jewish, Christianity, Islam and Bahai Faith, Tanakh is the sap root of all rituals,rules, and beliefs.
I was about to say about the eastern aspect in sex., I saw, good descriptions of earlier religious forms in your post. Thats was just a great work. I agree with the point regarding sex, weather its a sin or not. And I respect your point, even though I have different view on it.
___________________________________________
@ SAF,
I respect your view on Premarital sex. But can you tell me why are telling me its all, its bad. Its Argumentum ad lapidem. Try to give the reasons if you say so. Else try to consider its as a personal hypothesis. I hope you havnt forgotten about the clarifications I needed as I mentioned in my previous post. Thank you. and have a good time.
Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad(when 56 yrs old) married Aisha at the age of nine. was she a widow?
Muslim (8:3460) - “Why didn’t you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she could sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?” Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an “older woman” instead.
Bukhari (62:6) - “The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.” Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn’t hard to guess why.
abdunni - total confusion!
Please read fully for any doubt regarding pre marital sex in islam. I iknow its lengthy, but, its worth a read.
HANDLING SEXUAL URGE BEFORE MARRIAGE?
If a person cannot marry soon after becoming sexually and mentally mature, then how should he or she handle the sexual urge? In this section we will survey some ways of fulfilling the sexual urge and see whether they are permitted by Islam or not.
1. IMMORAL WAYS
(A) Pre-Marital Sex
Pre-marital sex is absolutely forbidden in Islam, no matter whether it is with a girl-friend or a prostitute. Pre-marital sex is fornication (zina).
It is also an irresponsible sexual behavior There is no responsibility involved in such relationships. The most vulnerable person in such relationships is the woman. Statistics can overwhelmingly prove that man has often cheated innocent women in pre-marital sex. Today half of all American men and women in their thirties cohabited before marriage, many of them on the assumption that it is better to look deeply before they leap. But studies now demonstrate that couples who cohabit before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who do not. (Newsweek, p. 57)
Glen Elder, a sociologist at University of North Carolina, has this to say about cohabitation: “It’s a relationship that attracts those, mainly men, who are looking for an easy way out and it is uncertain what, if anything, it contributes to marriage.” A twenty-four year old lady wrote the following in a letter to Ann Landers: “…The line [in a previous letter] that struck home was from the teenager who said she knew lots of girls her age who had several partners ‘just for the fun of it.’ I found that odd because I was having sex at 16 and it was no fun at all. Sleeping with guys wasn’t exciting or thrilling, it was degrading. It made me feel lonelier and emptier than ever. I also worried from month to month about being pregnant. That can be a real hell…if I could talk to the young girls who read your column, I would tell them that teenage sex doesn’t solve problems, it creates more. It doesn’t make a girl feel loved. It makes her feel cheap. I’d let them know that it doesn’t make a girl ‘more of a woman,’ it can make her less of one.” (The Vancouver Sun, Dec. 5, 1989)
Allah says: Do not go near adultery, .surely it is an indecency, and an evil way [of fulfilling sexual urge]. (17:32) Fornication and adultery have severely been condemned in the saying of the Prophet and the Imams. In Islam, pre-marital sex is considered an immoral act against the rights of Allah and one’s own sexual organs.
Pre-marital sex is a sin punishable by the Islamic court. If an unmarried man and an unmarried woman are found guilty of fornication in an Islamic court, their punishment will be as the following: The woman and the man who fornicate scourge each of them a hundred whips; and in the matter of God s religion, let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in God and the Last Day; and let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (24:2) If the unmarried man or woman commit fornication more than once, then they will be punished three times by hundred wipes, and if they are proven guilty for the fourth time, then they will be put to death. (See the chapter on “hudud” in Sharaya’ and Sharh Lum’a also a;-Khu’i, Takmilah, p. 37-8) (As for adultery, its punishment is even more severe because married persons have no excuse, whatsoever, to commit adultery. The shari’ah says that married persons guilty of adultery should be stoned to death.)
Therefore, pre-marital sex is out of the question as a means of fulfilling the sexual urge.
(B) Masturbation
In Islamic terminology, masturbation (istimna) means self-stimulation of the sexual organ till one achieves emission of semen or orgasm. Masturbation in form of self-stimulation is forbidden in Shi’ah fiqh. While describing the believers, the Qur’an says, “The believers are… those who protect their sexual organs except from their spouses… Therefore, whosoever seeks more beyond that [in sexual gratification], then they are the transgressors.” (23:5-6) The last sentence makes it very clear that any sexual gratification outside marriage is considered a transgression of the law of God. And this verse also implies that sex is an act in which two people are involved. Once when Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq was asked about masturbation, he recited this very verse and mentioned masturbation as one of its examples. (Wasa’il, vol. 18, p. 575) In another, the Imam was asked about masturbation; he said, “It is an indecent act…” (Wasa’il, vol. 14, p. 267; vol. 18, pp. 574-5)
Masturbation is a sin for which a person can also be punished by the Islamic court. Of course, the nature of the punishment is upon the judge’s discretion. Once a person was caught masturbating and was brought to Imam ‘Ali. The Imam punished him by beating on his hands until it turned red; then he made arrangement for his marriage on government’s expenses. (Wasa’il, vol. 14, p. 267; vol. 18, pp. 574-5)
These days some scientists are telling us that there is no harm in masturbation, rather it is a natural act. To prove that it is natural, they give examples of some wild animals, like monkeys. Actually they represent those who have gone to the other extreme of sexual morality. They have degraded human beings to the level of wild animals, and then justify their deeds by finding examples in the animal world. They are, in Qur’anic expression, “like cattle, nay they are more astray; they are the heedless ones.” (7: 179) The irony is that when Muslims talk about following Islam which came just 1400 years ago, they are labeled by the secularists as ‘reactionaries,’ ‘those who want to turn the clock backwards,’ ‘anti -progress,’ and now these very people are going millions of years back (according to their own counting) and following the wild animals or the primitive societies to determine what is natural for us and what is not natural!
Many different types of sexual behavior could be found in primitive societies, but that does not automatically make it natural or right. On the contrary, in some cases, masturbation was considered an abnormal and abhorrent act! For example, Lewis Cutlow writes about the Amazon Indians that:
…Xinguanos are deeply disturbed by civilizados who are sexually frustrated; they cannot understand how a man can become aroused at the sight of a nude woman. In his 25 years of daily life with Indians, Orlando told me, he had never seen an Indian with an erection. It would be absurd to them. Nor has Orlando seen or heard any instances of sexual deviation among the Indians. They did not know what masturbation was until they saw a civilizado telegraph operator doing it. From then on the telegraph operator was a problem to Orlando and his colleagues at the Park. The Indians despised him because, in their eyes, he had done something reprehensible. There was nothing to do but remove him from the Park. (The Twilight of the Primitive, p. 16-7 as quoted in Sex and Destiny, p. 88)
Sometimes the scientists justify masturbation by saying that many people do it! But if a majority does something, it does not automatically prove that it is right. Otherwise, drugs should also be declared ‘normal’ because the majority of Americans, at one time or another, took drugs. The surveys made by sexologists like Kinsey, Masters and Johnson, and the Hite Report just reveal what the American people do in the privacy of their bedroom; it does not necessarily prove that what they do is natural and right!
Many modern psychologists say that masturbation is just like normal sexual intercourse, rather even better because you are master of yourself, you don’t have to worry about your partner’s feelings! This is an example of how low the materialist society has sunk into its self-centered and selfish attitude that even in sex it prefers to seek self-gratification with the exclusion of the spouse. “They seem to forget that in sexual intercourse all the senses contribute to the stimulation and orgasm: Man and woman see their partner, touch each other, say endearing words to each other and hear the stimulating sounds; and even the senses of smell and taste are utilized. And the penetration of male organ into the female leads to the final excitement and orgasm. But in masturbation the only source of stimulation is imagination, in which no other sense takes any part. The whole burden is loaded upon the mind; and, as a result, while normal sexual intercourse causes happiness and joy, masturbation creates emotional and psychological depression.” (Rizvi, S.S.A., Your Questions Answered, vol. 3, p. 40-1)
This is not just an opinion of a Muslim scholar. Even the Hite Report on Male Sexuality, says: “Similarly, many men said that they enjoyed masturbating physically, but that emotionally it was depressing.” (The Hite Report on Male Sexuality, p. 489) In one of the replies, a man writes: “It is physically enjoyable, but it can leave one emotionally empty or lonely for the real thing. You can do it when you feel like it, come when you want, bring up your own images, but there is no warmth or closeness, no one to share pleasure with, no companionship. . . “(The Hite Report on Male Sexuality, p. 489) After saying that the physical effects of masturbation are negligible, Leslie D. Weatherhead in The Mastery of Sex writes: “Psychologically the results are more serious. Masturbation in the adult is nearly always due to a maladjustment…” (The Mastery of Sex, p. 103)
THE CURE FOR MASTURBATION: It is easy to stay away from fornication because it involves another person. But the danger of getting into the habit of masturbation is always there, therefore it is necessary to know how to combat this perverted sexual behavior. The following is a guide-line for releasing a person from the habit of masturbation. This has been taken from Weatherhead’s The Mastery of Sex and ‘Allamah Rizvi’s Your Questions Answered.
1. Strengthening will-power. This is possible only if one honestly and sincerely wants to get rid of this habit. Pray to Allah to help you overcome this habit, concentrate on religious teachings, and build up the spirit of taqwa, piety.
2. More and more stay in the company of other persons: If in the daytime you feel like masturbating, get up from your bed or chair and get into the presence of other people and talk to them. If it happens at bedtime, sit up in bed, read a book or write a letter. Do something to switch your mind on to other things.
3. Adopt some hobby or sports which will provide you with an outlet for the energies of your body.
(C) Homosexuality
One way of fulfilling the sexual urge which is now becoming acceptable in the Western world is sexual relations between members of the same sex: homosexuality (which by definition includes lesbianism). By saying that it is becoming acceptable in liberal societies I do not mean to say that homosexuality is a 20th century phenomenon; no, not at all. But there is one big difference between the past and the present: in the past, homosexuality was considered a perverted sexual behavior whereas now it is being labeled as ‘natural’ and as a result of ‘inborn tendency’ !
All revealed religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam form a united front against such sexual behavior. It has been clearly condemned in the Bible and the Qur’an. The Qur’an describes the people of Lut (Lot) as follows:
When We sent Lut, he said to his people, “What! do you commit the indecency which none in all the nations had committed before you? Look at you! You approach the men lustfully instead of approaching your women! No, you are a people who have exceeded the limits.” The only answer of his people was that they said, ‘Expel them from your city, surely they are a people who seek to keep themselves clean!” So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was one of those who tarried behind. We sent upon them a rain. So behold how was the end of the guilty people. (7:80-84)
The Qur’an also describes how Prophet Lut tried to reason with his people when they approached his three guests (who were actually angels in human form):
When the people of Lut saw the handsome young men, they came to him, running towards him. Lut had anticipated this because they had been doing evil deeds from before.
When the people reached close to his house, Lut said pointing towards his daughters that, “O my people! These are my daughters, they are purer for you. Fear Allah and do not disgrace me in regard to my guests. Isn’t there among you a man of right mind?”
They said, “You know better that we have no desire for your daughters; and you surely know what we desire.” (11 :78-79)
Explaining the details of the punishment, Allah says,
So when Our punishment came upon the people of Lut, We turned the city upside down and showered them with stones of baked clay, one after another.(11:82)
So we see that as far as the Qur’an is concerned, homosexuality is an “indecency,” and that Allah had destroyed a whole nation because of this indecent sexual behavior.
In the Islamic legal system, homosexuality is a punishable crime against the laws of God. In the case of homosexuality between two males, the active partner is to be lashed a hundred times if he is unmarried and killed if he is married; whereas the passive partner is to be killed regardless of his marital status. In the case of two females (i.e., lesbianism), the sinners are to be lashed a hundred times if they are unmarried and stoned to death if they are married. (See the chapter on “hudud” in Sharaya and Sharh Lum’a also al-Khu’i, Takmilah, p. 42-44.
Why is Islam so severe in matters of fornication, homosexuality and lesbianism? If the Islamic system had not allowed the gratification of the sexual urge by lawful means (without even associating guilt with it), then it would be right to say that Islam is very severe. But since it has allowed the fulfillment of sexual instincts by lawful means, it is not prepared to tolerate any perverted behavior.
The homosexuals are considered as the high risk group for Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS). This shows that nature has not accepted it as a normal sexual behavior among mankind. The homosexuals are told that in order to have safe sex, they must use condoms. If homosexuality without condoms is not safe sex, then how can it be natural? Isn’t the statement that “it is natural but not safe” a contradiction in itself?
The moral bankruptcy of the West is clearly evident in the present trend where some Christian churches are willing to consider modifying the Biblical moral values to accommodate the whims of those who want to justify their immoral behavior! A high ranking Anglican cleric in Canada says that it’s time his church approved some form of service or rite that would bless the union of committed same sex couples. (See the statement of The Very Rev. Duncan Abraham. Dean of St. James Cathedral in Toronto. The Toronto Sun, Nov. 24, 1993.) After a three-hour debate in 1987, the General Synod of the Church of England “decided that homosexuality is wrong, but has refused to condemn it as a sin.” (The Globe & Mail (Toronto) Nov. 12, 1987) It seems that instead of providing moral and ethical leadership, the church is being led by the special interest groups. Such groups even want the public schools to change the definition of family so as to make their life-style acceptable.
Dear SAF, with full respect to Islam and its preaching, I must tell that abrahamic religions particularily in its places of its origin, donot advocate on the personal freedom or underline the concept of individuality, which many ancient civilizations do believe.
Even US and europe do believe in Individualism and Personal freedom, because of the essence of its ancient civilizations that bound into modern christanity it follows. For example europe is liberal, because it do have the Roman, Greek, Scavandian influence over christanity, whereas Mayan culture and various ancient cultures do have a considerable influence over US culture along with the imported Spanish and French culture.
Friend, we are not living in Muhammadian era anymore…. Even Saudi Arabia has appointed a committee now, to suggest suitable reforms in the sharia to match with modern lifestyle. We are in 2008 AD, not in 586 AD.
If we can’t be in 200 BC where many religions allows pre-marital is allowed. Likewise how can we follow 586 AD’s rule in modern 2008 AD.
With full respect that you in respect to your religion, you are free to follow your religion’s customs and traditions. But in a country like India, which has a glorious tradition and legends of pre-martial sex, to some extent lesbianism or other sexual fanasties, then how can you simply its against our culture. Culture is not simply christanity or islam alone. It also comprise of India’s largest religion Hinduism. When we too have a tradition of pre-martial sex, how can simply say its against our overall culture and prohibits it.
India is a country know for its religious freedom. Our tradition lies on the fact, that we always value individual freedom. If 2 consenting individuals do sex, whats wrong in that. Only thing is that both should have mental maturity to know its consequences and physical maturity to do it.
I still can’t understand what bothers a person like us, to involve in decision of 2 adults, who knows abt their life.
Well definition of family is made by society. Its right, if you live only a Muslim society, where you definitions has meaning. But you live in a very multi-ethnic, where different culture and different value systems prevail.
I do agree in modern society, some things are not desirable, but you can’t term such things as sin, as its not sin in many other definitions…. For any hindus, who knows puranas and shastras, its not at all sin to enage into pre-martial sex. But in modern circumstances, its wrong. Wrong and sin are different.
likewise I didn’t why you brought up the concept of Gay or mastrubation into this discussion. Our topic is different.
hope to stick on the revelant part of the discussion
How about we simply come back to square 1 and take a good long look at the word ‘Morality’.
I quote Wikipedia: [a 1000 apologies ]
MORALITY: from the Latin moralitas “manner, character, proper behavior”) has three principal meanings.
In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, morals are created by and define society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience.
//notice the use of the word ‘authoritative’
//I find that unpleasant
In its second, normative and universal sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. To deny ‘morality’ in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism.
//I most definitely would fit in this category of skeptics.
In its third usage, ‘morality’ is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.
//This is something definitely worth pursuing. Sadly few universities in India are devoted to these important areas as opposed to Engineering and Science.
I believe Human beings must NOT be allowed to write down ANY definition of ‘Morality’. Every person dictates his own version of Morality. i.e Right vs Wrong.
In a society comprising of more than one person, the people and social groups who wield the most political and social clout manage to subtly impose their version of Morality on the remainder of the population. (eg. The Roman Catholic Church in the Dark Ages) This is the sad truth. But, at the same time it was ultimately beneficial for the sorry lot of humanity in Europe at that point in History. Of course, its a different story that this same clout was abused over the ages by several MafiaDon-like Popes in Europe and generally made free-thinking people’s lives HELL. (eg. Galileo, Leonardo Da Vinci) Just think… America would not be what it is if not for the persecution the Pilgrim migrants suffered in England at the hands of the Church of England. The Church of England, incidentally was born out of hatred of the Catholic Church’s Iron grip of European society. Can anyone remember the Butterfly Effect…. Evolution at work, ladies and gentlemen.
Friends… “History” is written by those who survive to tell the tale. The winners always tell the tale.
Today’s societies are increasingly connected and networked thru new technology and new media.
A million ideas and cultures come into contact with each other. The smart thing would be to keep an open mind to new and radical ideas. The theory of evolution continues to apply to all aspects of our life.
Wherever we humans can find a rallying point, we gather around these same ideas (eg. Patriotism, or War on all kinds of Terrorism, Women’s equality, Protection of Children from violence,etc)
I think we can agree that nearly all of the above issues/values are any non-schizophrenic human being can agree on.
Hundreds of these values combined together define our ‘humanity’ (adjective)
Personally I have absolutely nothing against whatever two or more sane consenting adults do in the privacy of their 4 walls. I simply don’t care. Adults are capable of making choices, making mistakes and learning from them. I disagree with anyone(even if he/she wears a funny-looking hat :p) who thinks otherwise.
It sickens me to read about the human rights abuses committed against same-sex couples and other people with alternate sexualities. Even Alan Turing, the computing pioneer wasn’t spared from the abuse in England.
Dragging God and morality into the discussion is just plain ridiculous.
What is morality anyway? Just another evolutionary mechanism, and quite often a social weapon used even by Chimpanzee in their societies.
Morality is just a primal evolutionary Variable. We humans are really tiny entities participating in this great big Simulacra we call ‘Life’, where some higher order Intelligence is quite proabably laughing at this discussion we are having right now. Just imagine how delighted they would be to realise that we can actually think outside the sandbox of variables they’ve equipped us with.
(Yes, I do believe there is someone up there laughing at us in delight; and it makes me mad. :p)
ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
Its a good read.
@Arun Mohan
I have heard a different version of the Krishna story—that narakasura killed 16000 princes and enslaved their wives.When he was killed, krishna released them but they had no place to go.So he protected them so that they would be treated with respect.I have heard that krishna had three wives (Rukmini, Sathyabhama and jambavathi).
Also these poets are really foolish once so they introduced sensuality in rasaleela…….krishna left brindavan (the venue were rasa leela happenned) at the age of eleven…..
Krishna was a kid when he hid the clothes of ladies bathing in a pool……..
It is also heard that during the life time of lord krishna, many rumours were spread about him.He was accused of stealing a diamond named syamanthaka which he wasn’t………..
…………Now TV Series Makers also joined in the act of making their own versions without doing any thorough research………….
So the end result is we have hindu youths who are ready to die and kill in the name of religion knowing nothing about what they stand for……………
People still accuse him 5000 years after his lifetime saying that he has illicit relations with gopis………….
Well, medical science prohibits the marriage b/w close relations..A relationship between an uncle and niece is consanguineous, and will lead to dire genetic results. And premarital sex is in no way harmful to your body…heheheee…
Did I hear somebody talk ‘morality’?
I request DJ to read Qur’an an Hadeed instead of reading faithfreedom.org. Brother FaithFreedom.org is an Israil website for insulting Islam. In India, Sang Parivar is promoting this website.
Why can’t you read Qur’an instead of this ugly websites?
The intention of this post was not a discussion about religions. The post was not supporting premarital sex or marrying relatives. All that I tried to convey was that each culture has its own way of doing things. Its not appropriate to compare cultures. Our right their wrong and their right is our wrong.
######End Of Discussion#######
Exactly Admin.
And sorry for the deviation. 
I think it was me who brought the thoughts from Quran. Later it had to do a lot with religion and related things. But my buddies whom I argued with gave a good cloud, thank you really for them.
@Shan,
Reading Quran is a less respectful act, normally muslims use the word Recite Quran instead of Reading. Nothing bad yet.
Also, to understand the core and full wings of Quran will take more than a human life time, proved by the scholars who tried to chain the full content of Quran.
All the translations are only bare minimum summery of what quran is. Nothing related to our discussion topic but for a general information.. Translations are only 20% of what Quran is actually (Quran scholars say so).
Dears,
I don’t know much about Tamilnadu, the southren state of India. But, In north india, The marriages between cousins and with uncles is mpossible. we, hindus of north india generally do not even marriage within 4 gotras of Father, mother, maternal Grandmother and grand mother.The purity of blood is the important aspect for new generation to come and this type of tradition of not marrying between four gotras ,takes care of that.
lokesh
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